ZedAI telcon 20100215
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Note: this meeting will be held at 2100h UTC. Find the meeting time in your geographical location.
Contents |
Present
Markus (scribe), Matt, Dennis, Josh, ChristianW
Regrets
James, Per, ChristianE
IRC Channel
IRC Address: irc.a11y.org
Channel: #zedai
Previous Telcon
Action Items
New
- ChristianW: come up with a proposal for a clear definition of scope distribution between MathML and <num>; use emailing list so Dennis et al can react.
- Matt: update the num element wiki page with a proposal for a new set of "pragmatic" properties for role on num
- ChristianW get a Google account, give Markus google account address (adding CW as project member).
- Dennis: suggest reasonable set of "ZedAI recognized" values for @encoding on mathml:annotation-xml. Note that other values beyond these would be allowed from a document validity perspective, but tools would not be required to support anything beyond the given set. (Note that the list could be empty, ie tools are compliant without supporting any value). Note also that values for mathml:annotation are also possibly of interest
- Dennis: is there a predefined value for mathml-in-css to use in @encoding?
- Dennis: determine whether we should allow Strict Content, Pragmatic Content, or both inside annotation-xml.
- Markus: update ZedAI MathML feature to allow the presentation as the top-level expression, and allow content (strict and/or pragmatic, see Dennis action item above) mathml inside but not outside annotation-xml
- ChristianE :
review proposed solutions to 110 and 111 in the issue tracker.[DONE: Both proposed solutions are fine and solve our use cases] - Markus assign owners to Braille issues in tracker.
Brought Along
- markus: summarize number element discussion to list, assure possible connections to Dennis' "simple math" expression are covered
- markus: on meta+properties for braille/formatting annotations: summarize to list
- markus: check with Joel re homonyms in BiD
- Christian:
check with Mr Waldfogel re suppression of emphasis: one-by-one or following a pattern?[DONE see #emphasis not shown in Braille ] - markus make sure we have an issue in the tracker to populate vocab with properties for names
- matt: review inline markup in bibliography, glossary, index {ONGOING}
- kenny: send summary of use case for continuation indicator to list.
- markus: close issue 44: deferred until proper Braille Feature is built. (see below however)
- markus add issue to tracker: may be necessary with publisher address in inline reqd metadata.
- dennis find out if math:switch supports mathml-for-css
- dennis, on MathML_ what symbols are used to denote the switch types? point us to where switch is explained. Need to figure out relation to our content selection feature.
- markus: add math role to vocab, add prose to MathML feature doc that explains its restricted use.
- markus check how math/@id and else/@xml:id works in RelaxNG and XSD.
- markus investigate pros/cons of going back to using id?
- Boris: start documenting object and annotation {ONGOING}
- Boris/Markus - ask ViewPlus et al about the SVG namespace-inject issue [ONGOING @markus]
- Kenny - own the page continuator issue (note, we have a similar lurker in terms of running heads)
- Boris: help deal with svg integration, help with object documentation and samples, address issue 9 [ONGOING]
Agenda/Minutes
This weeks Braille Issues
Numerals
Status update - approaching stable proposed resolution?
Issues: Issue 118, Issue 119, Issue 120
Wiki page: ZedAI_Numeral_Element
Some comments re the relation of num to math: Issue 46 comment 5
Telcon Discussion:
Dennis: for simple tokens, using something like <num role="math"> is probably preferable. Had discussions with Neil about this at ATIA.
Markus: the risk is that we open up for abuse, using <num role="math"> for longer tokens, etc
Matt: agree so far. MathML is overkill for a lot of simple expressions.
Dennis: if we are talking about just a variable like x, whereas if just a number then it should be a non-italic font. With just role="math", we couldnt extinguish. We need to provide more information.
Matt: yes : a minus sign and a dash are different symbols in Braille.
Dennis: Neil shows the code example in Issue 46: its not much shorter.
ChristianW: I agree to keep the num element, but NOT for mathematical stuff.
Conclusion:
- we do want a num element for non-mathematical expressions (phone numbers, ordinals, ISBN, etc) where the use of MathML for most users is unintuitive.
- we don't allow this to be used for mathematical expressions
Markus: we need to define the distinction clearly; what is "mathematical expression" above?
@ChristianW come up a clear definition of scope distribution between MathML and <num> use emailing list.
Remaining in num: define the new set of values for role on num @Matt
Time
Status update - approaching stable proposed resolution?
Issues: Issue 110, Issue 111, Issue 127
Markus has added proposed resolutions to 110 and 111 to tracker.
On the time element name: HTML5 will make people get used to it... we could change to datetime, note that we have a dateline element.
Homograph disambiguation
Status update - approaching stable proposed resolution?
Issue: issue 109
Wiki: ZedAI Homograph Proposal
This agendum was not covered on the call
Running Headers
Status update - approaching stable proposed resolution?
This agendum was not covered on the call
Indentation in Source Rendition feature
Notification of new Braille-related issue Issue 126
This agendum was not covered on the call
Issue ownership, work over the next weeks
- Distributing ownership of other Braille-related issues in tracker
- Owner to move issue towards stable proposed resolution
Markus to propose assignments in the tracker.
@ChristianW to be added as member, give Markus google account address.
Remaining MathML work
This issue lingers here til next time Dennis joins
See Issue 46
- Math role to vocab? (see z3986-core.n3) 'NOT ADDED; all delegated to MathML
- what is the relation to the soon-to-be added num element?
- other similar properties to add ?
- prose to Math RD about the limited use of the role property
- built-in math:switch versus our content selection feature? Think we should choose one. Important to support copy-and-paste.
Dennis: the element is called math:semantics, both in MathML 3 and pretty much unchanged in MathML 3. Takes as a minimum one child, with additional children after that. So what we would do is
<math>
<math:semantics>
... presentation math, followed by <annotation> or <annotation-xml>
... where the value of @encoding on annotation-xml set to for example to "content-mathml"
Markus: does MathML 3 provide an enumeration for @encoding?
Dennis: a few are recognized, but not a limited set.
Markus: do we want to enumerate a set of values for @encoding attribute that a compliant ZedAI processor must support?
@Dennis: suggest reasonable values for @encoding. Note that other values beyond these would be allowed from a document validity perspective but tools would not be required to support anything beyond the given set. Note that this list could be empty (and if so, the RD prose must still make this clear.)
Agreement that we should endorse the MathML built-in annotation format instead of using zedai:select element.
- (dennis) does the built-in math:switch support mathml-for-css?
This is a candidate for Dennis's action item on an enum for @encoding
@Markus update ZedAI MathML feature to allow the presentation as the top-level expression, and allow content mathml inside annotation-xml but not outside annotation-xml.
@Dennis: determine whether Strict Content, Pragmatic Content, or both inside annotation-xml.
Reminder: Dennis on MathML 'dialects':
The variety of schema choices permits use of particular subsets of MathML 3. As with MathML 2, MathML 3 provides two major "dialects" - content and presentation. MathML 3 adds "strict" and "pragmatic" variations to content MathML.
So which schema fragments to use will be determined by which type of MathML we support in Zed Next: Presentation, Strict Content, or Pragmatic Content.
I suggest we take the same approach as in the existing MathML-in-DAISY spec. It states that Presentation MathML MUST be used and Content MathML is optional via parallel mark-up. In parallel mark-up both Presentation and Content MathML are given and the rendering agent can choose between them.
If we take this approach, then we should use either the Presentation-only schema or the complete schema. To use the Presentation-only schema we use:
include "mathml3.rnc" {MathExpression = semantics | PresentationExpression}
according to http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML3/appendixa.html#parsing.rnc.module. To use the complete schema we use:
# A RelaxNG Schema for XHTML+MathML include "xhtml.rnc" math = external "mathml3.rnc" Inline.class |= math Block.class |= math
Next call
March 1. In the meanwhile, all will work on stabilizing proposed resolutions in the issure tracker.
