Minutes: 111009 Afternoon
From zedwiki
IRC Live notes - Tuesday afternoon
[1:09pm]danielwec:Scribe: Daniel [1:10pm] cwal joined the chat room. [1:10pm]danielwec:MG: strawman technical architecture => we're now going to start discussing this [1:10pm]danielwec:Design Goals: collective collection of intent [1:11pm]danielwec:Some requirements we don't know yet how to solve [1:11pm]danielwec:It's ok though. [1:11pm]danielwec:It;ll take time. [1:11pm]danielwec:Overarching idea of Profiles and Features [1:12pm]danielwec:ZedAI: how we came to where we are now. [1:12pm]marisa_d:edits are done on the design goals document [1:12pm]danielwec:High-level composition [1:12pm]danielwec:=> achieve flexibility at the level of the fileset [1:13pm]danielwec:(distribution unit) [1:13pm]danielwec:http://www.digitaltalkingbook.com/zw/ZedAI_Architecture_Overview [1:13pm]danielwec:outdated document [1:13pm]danielwec:"[edit] Graph: Architecture Overview " [1:13pm]danielwec:(image diagram) [1:14pm]danielwec:ZedAI: text-centric authoring [1:14pm]danielwec:no multimedia timing information [1:14pm]danielwec:only thing supported: referencing external images, etc. [1:14pm]danielwec:need: XML-based authoring format for re-publishing (re-purposing) [1:15pm]danielwec:(repurposing content) [1:15pm]danielwec:turn a document into something accessible [1:15pm]danielwec:Rich enough to enable good Braille output [1:15pm]danielwec:output format agnoticism [1:16pm]danielwec:break the confines of the "book" [1:16pm]danielwec:print-based publications: magazines, periodicals, menus, etc. [1:16pm]danielwec:ZedAI: one Profile per content "type" [1:17pm]danielwec:Each profile defines markup grammar [1:17pm]danielwec:(vocabularies) [1:18pm]danielwec:Extensibility: [1:18pm]danielwec:example => Book Profile [1:18pm]danielwec:we want Mathematics notations [1:18pm]danielwec:what about Forms, SVG, etc. [1:19pm]danielwec:too many permutations [1:19pm]danielwec:so 2-dimensional approach: Profiles define a type in "general" [1:19pm]danielwec:then a second dimension to inject "Features" [1:19pm]danielwec:(extra functionality) [1:20pm]danielwec:One declares support for Profile independently from Features [1:20pm]danielwec:(so Maths could be supported in several Profiles) [1:21pm]danielwec:Feature = entity which behavior doesn't vary amongst Profiles [1:21pm]danielwec:Profile is not just a collection of Features [1:22pm]danielwec:Profiles not based on XHTML 2 modularization framework anymore [1:22pm]danielwec:(XHTML2 died) [1:23pm]danielwec:http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2010/ [1:23pm]danielwec:The specification standardizes the composition model [1:23pm]danielwec:not the actual Profiles/Features [1:24pm]danielwec:New Profile can be added without having to change the specification [1:24pm]danielwec:Profile and Feature Catalogs [1:25pm]danielwec:Maintenance Commitee owns these [1:25pm]danielwec:They decide what goes in/out [1:25pm]danielwec:Feature = plugin/addon to a Profile [1:25pm]danielwec:Profile designer decides which Feature goes in [1:27pm]danielwec:At authoring time, one can inject new Features into the document model (which in essence updates the Schema) [1:28pm]danielwec:"pick and choose" whatever is required [1:30pm]danielwec:http://www.digitaltalkingbook.com/zw/ZedDist_Profiles_Strawman1 [1:30pm]danielwec:Now in ZedDist terriroty [1:30pm]danielwec:territory [1:31pm]danielwec:(image diagram) [1:31pm]danielwec:Composition of Features for each Profile: "audio" "classic" "pro" [1:32pm]danielwec:http://www.digitaltalkingbook.com/zw/ZedDist_Profiles_Component_Pool_Principle [1:32pm]danielwec:Component Pools: "Logic" "Media" [1:33pm]danielwec:Each component defines whether it's optional or not [1:34pm]danielwec:Is it immutable or can it be modified once included into a Profile ? [1:34pm]danielwec:"Logic" component pool [1:34pm]danielwec:"Container" "Package" "Director" "Navigation" [1:36pm]danielwec:polymorphic navigation: point to SMIL or directly to audio depending on Profile [1:36pm]danielwec:SMIL (Director) may not be required at all in some Profiles [1:38pm]danielwec:"Media" components [1:38pm]danielwec:Channels: image, audio, video, text [1:38pm]danielwec:all optional [1:39pm]danielwec:audio: polymorph (specification defines audio codecs, but Profiles can change that) [1:39pm]danielwec:e.g. MP3/Speex => Profile can say both or just one [1:39pm]danielwec:audio / video work similarly [1:40pm]danielwec:text channel: varying structural rigidity [1:40pm]danielwec:concrete grammars may vary [1:40pm]danielwec:define extension points: Compound Document by Reference or Integration [1:41pm]danielwec:text channel: static/non-timed text document, not TimedText (DFXP / TTML) stream [1:42pm]danielwec:Integration -> replace with "inclusion" (sorry) [1:42pm]danielwec:text component provides a pool of modules [1:43pm]danielwec:back to ZedDist_Profiles_Strawman1 [1:44pm]danielwec:Profiles: audio, classic, pro [1:45pm]danielwec:"classic" is not restricted to just one text grammar [1:45pm]danielwec:may be several [1:46pm]danielwec:(this is the only extension point in this profile) [1:46pm]danielwec:(audio profile is closed/fixed/static/immutable) [1:49pm]danielwec:in "classic" text loose versus strict [1:49pm]danielwec:loose = to upgrade DAISY 2.02 content (migration path) [1:50pm]danielwec:re-purpose books from Gutemberg, Google ePubs, etc. [1:50pm]danielwec:third profile "pro" [1:52pm]danielwec:extension points: Director (SMIL) Navigation (NCX) [1:53pm]danielwec:The "pro" profile contains everything for Video [1:53pm]danielwec:but Forms are a feature that can be added on [1:53pm]danielwec:(to any Profile) [1:55pm]danielwec:Inside Container, there are fallbacks available [1:55pm]danielwec:different Views of the Publication [1:56pm]danielwec:The Manifest should declare what supported features need to be implemented to open the Publication [1:56pm]danielwec:(declared upfront, no need to look into the actual material to figure-out what is there) [1:57pm]danielwec:ZedDist: suggested that we lock the Profiles, but can add Features [1:58pm]danielwec:in ZedAI: problems when adding Profiles are limited. Unless ZedDist which faces the user community, playback software implementors [1:58pm]danielwec:replace "unless" with "unlike", sorry [1:59pm]danielwec:ZedDist: only 3 profiles [1:59pm]danielwec:that's the proposal anyway [2:00pm]danielwec:Incubator activity to create new Profiles and get approve in a new Revision [2:00pm]danielwec:ZedAI doesn't require a Revision [2:02pm]danielwec:ZedAi = single XML document [2:02pm]danielwec:in header: Profile URI [2:02pm]danielwec:link, rel, href [2:03pm]danielwec:URI resolve into resource directory (PURL) [2:06pm]danielwec:container-level fallback, not declared in SMIL [2:07pm]danielwec:http://www.digitaltalkingbook.com/zw/Container_Research_Committee [2:09pm]danielwec:)Ruben Firmin going though this page now) [2:15pm]danielwec:if desired, a publication can contain many permutations of possible "views", media assets are now duplicated (stored in top-level MEDIA folder), but there may be one text document instance per use-case (to avoid switch scattered across the documents that need pre-processing before playback) [2:18pm]danielwec:fallback control structure if then elseif then, else... [2:18pm]danielwec:limited linear structure [2:18pm]danielwec:Media Queries or other richer mechanism to express choices [2:19pm]reubenfir:taking over note-taking for a bit [2:19pm]reubenfir:action item - look into media queries specification as an alternative to linear decision [2:20pm]reubenfir:[10 minute break] [2:30pm] jbrugge joined the chat room. [2:32pm] jbrugge left the chat room. (Leaving.) [2:43pm] cwal left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 360 seconds) [2:43pm] cwal joined the chat room. [2:45pm]danielwec:Scribe: Daniel [2:45pm]danielwec:Relation to other specifications [2:45pm]danielwec:ePub [2:45pm]danielwec:HTML5 [2:45pm]danielwec:SMIL3 [2:46pm]danielwec:DFXP (TTML) [2:46pm]danielwec:Profile versus Features: more openness == more fragmentation (trade-off) [2:48pm]danielwec:DAISY designed for people with disabilities, if it migrates into mainstream it's great, but it establishes itself as an accessible format. George says there is still no ePub he can access due to DRM [2:48pm]danielwec:Text-only Profile to be ePub compatible [2:49pm]danielwec:Timing is an issue: ePub spec different timeline / roadmap, changes in ePub need to be injected into a DAISY revision [2:50pm]danielwec:or: DAISY text-only Profile with ePub fallbac [2:50pm]danielwec:k [2:50pm]danielwec:use ePub as a resource from within DAISY [2:51pm]danielwec:problem with legislation ? [2:51pm]danielwec:wrapping an ePub might not be a problem (Sean) [3:04pm]danielwec:we could re-define a subset of XHTML as a common grammar between ePUB and text-only DAISY [3:05pm]danielwec:DAISY has more semantics [3:06pm]danielwec:very similar to ePUB but richer in its content model [3:06pm]danielwec:(note/noteref) [3:06pm]danielwec:Sean: semantic "style-sheet" that applies to an XHTML document [3:06pm]danielwec:George: xhtml:role attribute [3:07pm]danielwec:Sean: too limited [3:08pm]danielwec:RDF to supply semantics, generate equivalent XHTML [3:08pm]danielwec:? [3:08pm]danielwec:Sean: keep ePUB simple (just like it is now) [3:08pm]danielwec:add semantics into NCX or other external overlay [3:09pm]danielwec:(OPF) [3:09pm]danielwec:augment semantics from outside the text grammar [3:11pm]danielwec:manifest points to the text document [3:13pm]danielwec:XPointer, CSS Selector, or any other addressing technology [3:13pm]danielwec:advantage: text document remains compatible with off-the-shelf reading systems [3:15pm]danielwec:overlay adds information that can be interpreted by compliant user-agents [3:16pm]danielwec:TimedText could be augmented in the same way (only has divs, spans) [3:18pm]danielwec:George: difficulty to use W3C standards, semantics (where are all these things going ?) [3:21pm]danielwec:RDF "childof" relationship to re-structure some "flat" markup [3:24pm]danielwec:DAISY "owns" the semantic overlay, but ePUB is still "owned" by IDPF/whoever [3:25pm]danielwec:drop ePUB "switch" ? (user-agent support for MathML, for example) [3:26pm]danielwec:risk: too costly to implement [3:26pm]danielwec:flip-side: re-use existing ePUB reading systems, add semantic layer support [3:30pm]danielwec:semantic/accessible overlay to a text-only profile => reusable in the world by many other markup grammars (DocBook, DITA, etc.) [3:31pm]danielwec:Boris: express constraints for content validation [3:31pm]danielwec:Sean: rule-based systems, proof [3:33pm]danielwec:George: organization gets ePUB from publisher [3:33pm]danielwec:and adds value to it [3:33pm]danielwec:semantics, image descriptions [3:35pm]danielwec:adding page lists to ePUB [3:35pm]danielwec:(structural overlays) [3:36pm]danielwec:timing / synchronization overlays (Marisa): relevance of SMIL ? [3:36pm]danielwec:good because in control of presentation, but also bad for that same reason (less flexible, doesn't give up control easily) [3:38pm]danielwec:George: paragraph doesn't need to be "announced" explicitly (pause is sufficient), but quote, section, etc. requires auditory/tactile cues [3:41pm]danielwec:Daniel: are overlays within scope of "baked" distribution format work ? [3:42pm]danielwec:or upstream in the production process [3:45pm]danielwec:annotations are simpler, yet function similarly (non-desctructive augmentation of content via reference) [3:47pm]danielwec:offset to W3C ? [3:47pm]danielwec:problem: it's gonna take 10 years [3:48pm]danielwec:goal: support various text grammars, repurpose and add value (accessibility, etc.) [3:49pm]danielwec:DTBOOK: 82 elements, 68 of them in ePUB [3:49pm]danielwec:only a dozen elements for which we need external pointers overlay [3:49pm]danielwec:note/noteref [3:49pm]danielwec:aside [3:49pm]danielwec:pagenum [3:49pm]danielwec:annotation/annoref [3:50pm]danielwec:sidebar [3:50pm]danielwec:notice, warning, danger => more semantics to determine if skippable [3:50pm]danielwec:in ZedAI => aside role="warning" [3:52pm]danielwec:in HTML5 => section is DAISY's level [3:53pm]danielwec:options: [3:53pm]danielwec:... [3:53pm]danielwec:=> TOTAL DELEGATION [3:53pm]danielwec:+ no timing issues [3:54pm]danielwec:(concurrent spec revisions) [3:54pm]danielwec:- legal issues [3:54pm]danielwec:- no assurance of accessibility [3:54pm]danielwec:=> SEMANTIC OVERLAY [3:55pm]danielwec:(inject semantics into EPUB) [3:55pm]danielwec:+ non-destructive [3:55pm]danielwec:- outside of package, cannot be picked-up easily ...unlikely to be used [3:56pm]danielwec:=> TRIGGER EPUB REVISION AND SYNC WITH DAISY [3:56pm]danielwec:(replace DTBOOK with XHTML5 subset) [3:57pm]danielwec:IDPF probably want more semantics in their documents. Foot notes, not refs, ... poetry, dictionary, ... needed in the vocabulary [3:57pm]danielwec:how are they going to do this ? Likely: they will want XML elements [3:59pm]danielwec:which is fine [3:59pm]danielwec:role should be used to *refine* existing semantics (e.g. sidebar role=warning) [4:00pm]danielwec:in XHTML5" section, aside, figure [4:01pm]danielwec:we can define our own subset with some restrictions [4:03pm]danielwec:browser "quircks mode": ignore DAISY extensions [4:03pm]danielwec:----BREAK--- (10mn) [4:21pm]danielwec:end of break ! [4:23pm]danielwec:(1) and (2) are no-go. [4:23pm]danielwec:(3) ? [4:23pm]danielwec:fourth option: [4:24pm]danielwec:=> DEVELOP DAISY's OWN GRAMMAR [4:24pm]danielwec:for text-only DAISY books: match XHTML 1.1 or whatever the EPUB revision brings-up [4:25pm]danielwec:- not really a harmonization effort (duplicate) [4:25pm]danielwec:+ under our maintenance control [4:28pm]danielwec:timing issue with EPUB revision: combine into NISO process [4:28pm]danielwec:Draft Standard for Trial Use in 2010 [4:29pm]danielwec:2 vocabs in ePUB is sub-optimal [4:29pm]danielwec:move into the same namespace, core grammar [4:29pm]danielwec:loose and strict varieties [4:31pm]danielwec:IDPF revision cycle => once we know more, we can make a better informed decision about text-only Profile in DAISY [4:36pm]danielwec:The Multimedia Profiles text grammars are intended to be identical to whatever ePUB 3.0 becomes, if we get there. [4:36pm]danielwec:..with our needs satisified. [4:37pm]danielwec:George: approves the approach [4:37pm]danielwec:ePUB to move into multimedia, DAISY to support this transition if using the same grammars [4:38pm]danielwec:adjusting NISO timelines is better than producing something that doesn't combine well with the mainstream [4:38pm]danielwec:even though it's painful [4:39pm]danielwec:harmonization with ePUB is very important [4:44pm]danielwec:Clarification: George agrees with (not "approve") ! [4:45pm]mgylling:1) We conclude that synchronizing with IDPF 3.0 revision is the safest path [4:45pm]Kenny_J: [4:45pm]mgylling:2) that our likely adoption of XHTML namespace will be welcomed as a replacement for current IDPF DTBook [4:46pm]mgylling:3) That our requirement for XHTML in EPUB is based on the notion of a strict grammar [4:46pm]mgylling:4) We postpone further our "our" text only profile until we know more about the IDPF revision [4:47pm]mgylling:5) Assuming that IDPF 3.0 will be adopting a strict XHTML schema, the intent is to have that as the text channel schema in out multimedia profiles [4:49pm]danielwec:Future work: semantic sheets using CSS, maybe ? It would be a "feature". [4:49pm]danielwec:(CSS Selectors) [4:50pm]danielwec:Tomorrow: drop work on test-only, work on multimedia profiles instead [4:51pm]danielwec:come-up with answers, outcome should not have too many questions ! [4:51pm]danielwec:listing codecs for audio [4:51pm]danielwec:namespaces, profiles [4:51pm]danielwec:discuss real concrete profiles [4:52pm]danielwec:propose hypothetical strawman [4:52pm]danielwec:tomorrow start: relation to TTML (Sean), HTML5, etc. ? [4:53pm]danielwec:TTML = otherwise known as Timed Text TTAF-DFXP [4:53pm]danielwec:Onyx metadata [4:53pm]danielwec:relation to Marc ? [4:54pm]danielwec:in ZedAi: relation to MODS....but relation to Onyx is needed as well, so for flexibility purposes there will be a choice [4:54pm]danielwec:library vs producer needs [4:54pm] reubenfir left the chat room. [4:55pm]danielwec:ePub seems likely to adopt Onyx [4:55pm]danielwec:(revision) [4:56pm]danielwec:Meeting closed. [4:56pm]Kenny_J:have a fabulous evening all.
